Medical cyborgs

[Monstrant]

1 minute ago, Varlun said:

They don't care about polls, they don't care about popular opinion. They care about their vision.

I am afraid if you feel that way, you ll have to deal with it. They don't need to care as it is their server. However wrong we may find it, there are some forces which under current power structures cannot be challenged, and you run into one of them, property. So before you say something that will get you banned as I  can understand that you are getting more and more frustrated, please reconsider and think rationally.

[Varlun]

1 minute ago, Agent_Che said:

-Snip-

Don't worry about me, lol. I'm not getting frustrated. I'm just saying how it is.

[Spacemanspark]

24 minutes ago, Agent_Che said:

If I am not in science I have almost no way of dealing with these without EMP kit which is frankly quite expensive

Two telecrystals is very cheap.

[TullyBBurnalot]

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Have you considered that perhaps the intent was wrong? Maybe, a big maybe, that would be better, we can roll back any time. There is nothing preventing us from trying. The "end goal" does NOT have to be the end. Its about must and must nots in this case. I believe we can give it a try.

Or perhaps you simply don't like it. It's fine to admit this, everyone has their own tastes in video games; however, painting an intentional design decision as "wrong" because you don't like it isn't exactly the best way to go about having a civil conversation.

"We can always revert" is, again, not a reason for anything. I'm all for experimentation, but the ideas to be experimented with must be held on their own merit. See: this entire thread.

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Well have you considered that the merit of this idea is, the failure of your intent when designing the robots? That there is a better way? The end goal here, so to speak, is both player and admin satisfaction and there is no way except practically estabilishing through an investigation which idea truly serves the end goal the best.

Except you're assuming there isn't player satisfaction.

This is clearly your opinion.

Stop making it the global opinion of people you do not speak for.

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Then what is the point of having a dialogue? "Well we dont care, we have a vision, which we think is the best"

Should I point out this is how every server like this acts?

Allow me to introduce you to a fantastic metaphor. It's called the "Soup Shop Metaphor".

Essentially, imagine you go into a Soup Shop. This Soup Shop only sells soup, obviously. Now, once inside, you go the counter and ask for a pizza because you don't like soup, but you like pizza.

Now, your love of pizza is perfectly valid (and absolutely 100% objectively correct, as pizza is delicious), but that doesn't mean you can walk into a Soup Shop and demand pizza. The Soup Shop doesn't sell pizza. The Soup Shop only sells soup.

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Without a doubt you are the owners so you have the right to decide what is the going to happen or not. But what you think is the best, is not necessarily the best. You seem to have a great passion/like pick your word, for scientific method Tully, so why dont we conduct a study to find what would be truly the best?

Because, and I know this is going to get everyone riled up again, this isn't a democracy. We don't necessarily pick what a majority of players at any one given time think it's best, especially since our playerbase is very fluid. Our regulars now are not the regulars we had, say, 4-5 months ago.

We have not decided this way was "the best", I don't know where you're getting this from. We decided on this way. This is how we want to run things. We're not making the claim that this is the awesomest bestest way available, it's just the way we went.

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The argument here is that there is too much weak, too little strong. Despite facing indefinite disadvantages on multiple levels some players feel that there could be a better way to handle this "balance scales" situation.

I'll point at the advantages myself and Twinmold have brought up and respectfully request that you stop ignoring them.

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If I am not in science I have almost no way of dealing with these without EMP kit which is frankly quite expensive

As Spark just pointed out, 2 Telecrystals is massively cheap.

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Yet I suggest that we open another thread with poll which asks about this issue

We don't do binding polls. Never have, never will. This is a pointless idea.

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There you must contribute an opinion paired with a vote regardging the issue INDEPENDENT of others. That thread is not going to be another discussion thread, its a forum where basically you either write your own form of opinion or vote for somebody else using karma system ( I am talking about the opinion comments themselves not the poll ) As the dmin team correctly pointed out, older players do have a privelege of understanding the game better, Such resolution counts  that in. In no way am I suggesting for this poll to be binding to the admins. Just an advisory referendum of sorts.

Oh, guess you handled the advisory part.

...

Still no. You've been told by several people here why your ideas aren't as good as you're trying to make them out to be. Your response is to double down and say we should have a poll to see what people think.

We cannot have a discussion if you refuse to reach a middle ground.

 

[Varlun]

10 minutes ago, TullyBBurnalot said:

Or perhaps you simply don't like it. It's fine to admit this, everyone has their own tastes in video games; however, painting an intentional design decision as "wrong" because you don't like it isn't exactly the best way to go about having a civil conversation.

Woah, woah, woah. And now you're attacking him. Accusing him of being uncivil. Sure, he has a direct way of speaking, just like I do, but that doesn't mean he's being uncivil. I'm sure what he means is that your decision is "potentially" wrong. It can be difficult for us to come up with examples concrete enough to actually convince you, which is why we like to refer to the fact that most people involved in these conversations seem to be leaning toward- again, for Medical borgs specifically- giving them a few pick-me-ups. They feel a little too limited. I again point to the numerous threads I linked. Those are some very simple things, and if all of those were done I personally would be extremely happy with where Medical borgs stand. It's not like they're drastic changes. This wouldn't even require a shift in your design policy. At least as far as my suggestions are concerned. And I don't recall anyone else making suggestions that would require this change either (for example giving them hands)- and even if there are, I would say THOSE people are in the minority. But you don't care about majority/minority, do you?

This whole conversation feels pointless. Every time we try to make even a simple suggestion, it seems like you rebound back to "working as intended" and don't want to change anything. And this gets turned into a whole philsophical debate about whether medical borgs should be more powerful or not, when all we wanted was just simple little quality of life improvements or very small improvements- again, like the threads I linked.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Varlun

[Spacemanspark]

54 minutes ago, Varlun said:

Woah, woah, woah. And now you're attacking him. Accusing him of being uncivil. Sure, he has a direct way of speaking, just like I do, but that doesn't mean he's being uncivil.

Tully wasn't "attacking" him. And you're not exactly Mr. Sunshine either.

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They don't care about polls, they don't care about popular opinion. They care about their vision.

Chill out. We're trying to explain this to you as kindly as we can that this isn't something that will be good for the server. Yes, as staff, we have a general direction of what we want the server to have, in terms of code and roleplay levels. We aren't going to do a 180 and overhaul that which we've been trying to do for years because two or so players say otherwise.

Either stop the rude attitude, or I'm locking the thread. We don't want to deal with this crap.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Spacemanspark

[Monstrant]

37 minutes ago, TullyBBurnalot said:

 however, painting an intentional design decision as "wrong" because you don't like it isn't exactly the best way to go about having a civil conversation.

I1.Excuse me, correct me again if I am wrong. But isnt intent quite an important bit in one's actions? Your very own Staff Guidelines mention intent as being a divisor between a temporary ban and a permanent one. Please, from what you are saying, I think that you feel that your intent CANNOT be wrong. Which is wrong. I know I can be wrong here due to my short experience, I know my intent may be wrong because it would be easier for me to just not give a damn about an ingame mechanic I rarely use. However you do not seem to feel in the same way. I may be wrong here again, but even Staff are human.

2. I am not persay arguing that the intent is wrong. Rather "imperfect". Or, I may even be arguing that it is not the intent which is wrong. As

33 minutes ago, Varlun said:

It's not like they're drastic changes. This wouldn't even require a shift in your design policy.

I may just as well be arguing that the Staff's intepretation of intent is wrong. A minor QoL update which is not hugely beneficial (4% of the surgeries Twinmold said?) still is quite nice. Its the continued "walling" of the ideas which is wrong. The intent is not to let Carbons and Cyborgs be equal, or Cyborgs more powerful than Humans. Well the organ manipulators are not going to quite make the difference would they?

46 minutes ago, TullyBBurnalot said:

Except you're assuming there isn't player satisfaction.

 

Pardon me, meant in a non sarcastic way, but where?

46 minutes ago, TullyBBurnalot said:

This is clearly your opinion.

Quite frankly no. It is you are who are projecting the infallible trust into players by believing they CANNOT possibly be not satisfied with your intended design. What I said was not an opinion, it was a fact. Because no matter what you say until all posibilites have been tried there is no way of knowing what is truly the best, what would serve the player satisfaction most. Since you are rejecting any kind of investigation into the matter there is no way you can state and claim what you have claimed. ( No sarcasm here is meant. And no rudeness either. If you see some I am sorry but I honestly did not notice it, )

50 minutes ago, TullyBBurnalot said:

Allow me to introduce you to a fantastic metaphor. It's called the "Soup Shop Metaphor".

That is your right to only serve soup. However we can try different kinds of soup cant we?

53 minutes ago, TullyBBurnalot said:

We have not decided this way was "the best", I don't know where you're getting this from. We decided on this way. This is how we want to run things. We're not making the claim that this is the awesomest bestest way available, it's just the way we went.

Then, if your intent is not the best, how can you claim that it is an opinion that there can be better ways? ( I am referring to the earlier point where you have called something I said an opinion. ) A logical fallacy as it seems to me.

 

55 minutes ago, TullyBBurnalot said:

I'll point at the advantages myself and Twinmold have brought up and respectfully request that you stop ignoring them.

I will adress these later, unless you wish to lock the thread ofcourse.

56 minutes ago, TullyBBurnalot said:

As Spark just pointed out, 2 Telecrystals is massively cheap.

So you do agree, that traitors counter cyborgs ridiculously easy?

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In the end

Tully: If we can change things it does not mean we should

Me: If we can change things it does not mean we shouldnt

And I perfectly understand that. It is a very stable position and risking something new after so much effort and work have been put into making cyborgs what they are now, is quite silly as it seems to the Staff.  They finally follow their "intent" there is no reason to spend more resources on balancing these. And that is your right to do so and I understand that. As Socrates said "Is it truly a problem, or a matter of perception?" In this case I think the latter. My perception is inadvertedly different to yours as we see the world differently, from different heights.  Tully I am not a radical advocating for hands, all I wanted to do by engaging in this conversation is not even giving the Cyborgs ability to do the remaining "4%" of the surgeries. No, I am trying to say that... ugh I dont even know... What am I truly trying to say? Be softer? More accepting? Well, that is not going to work. However I really, really wish for you to reconsider regarding these minor QoL suggestions Varlun has been making.

I kindly ask you to give others more regard( not that you were rude no, not in that sense) (It probably seems very hipocritical to you that I am saying this to you, but that is mostly due to how I write. I am not as convinced on the issue as you are. The main reason I got behind this is to find out how the Staff thinks and this was very helpful. I can now understand which suggestions to make better than before. I recognize your viewpoint.)

P.S Again, if any part of this seems rude or hostile, it is not, at least that was not my intent to make it like that.

[Monstrant]

20 minutes ago, Spacemanspark said:

We aren't going to do a 180 and overhaul that which we've been trying to do for years because two or so players say otherwise.

this and this

 

1 hour ago, TullyBBurnalot said:

Your response is to double down and say we should have a poll to see what people think.

We cannot have a discussion if you refuse to reach a middle ground.

seem contradictory to me. However I shall leave it to your intepretation.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Monstrant

[Varlun]

Agent Che here is on point.

[ZomgPonies]

This whole thread is a toxic garbage circlejerk between two players who think they know better than everyone else.

[Varlun]

Just now, ZomgPonies said:

-Snip-

And you have contributed nothing to the discussion. Thank you for the random and completely unneeded insult.

[Spacemanspark]

This is getting out of hand. Thread locked.

[ZomgPonies]

I insulted the thread, not the players. Let me list the way in which this thread is a dumpster fire:

- Pretending like you have any significant degree of support for these changes.

- Pretending that even if you DID have significant support, that we'd be forced to enact them.

- Cherry-picking miniscule parts of replies to try to validate your points while completely ignoring everything else.