Remove "Lawyer" and "Public Defender" Titles

[SomeGuy9283]

That sums it up pretty well.

Why? For starters, the rarity of trials makes it beyond moot. Secondly, I've seen people think it absolves them of the restrictions on IAAs (One it particular broke a changeling out of perma). Thirdly, they are far closer to investigators than any sort of lawyer. And Public Defender? What happened to don't take sides?

[ZN23X]

From my experience IAA is going to take the side of the prisoner and make security as miserable as possible regardless of thier title. But I still agree the titles are unecessary.

Not complaining about annoying IAA...it's sort of thier job to be a pest and lead to more conflict.

[Machofish]

I have yet to read a compelling argument for why the IAA's job should include unconditionally advocating for all detainees. I think the 'Lawyer' and 'Public Defender' alternate titles give the wrong connotations into what an IAA should be doing, nor do they encourage any sort of contributing behaviour.

IAAs do have a place in sec - ideally, the IAA should be helping sec by more thoroughly looking into reports of bad behaviour and evaluating whether the complaints against a member of sec are legitimate or not. The common problem is that many IAAs instead think that their job is to see how many security members they can fire in one shift, regardless of intent or consequence of the sec member's actions. This creates a vicious cycle where most of sec ignores the IAAs on the principle that nothing they do or say will be useful, or that every last ounce of influence that security gives them will immediately be used to pry sec apart. Then as a result the IAAs become resentful towards sec, begin showing bias against sec in their reports and allegations, and so on.

[Taaketa]

I was playing as NT Rep on a particular round were the IAAs were over bearing and constantly harassing sec demanding nonsense requests like the signature for a warrant for someone's arrest when one isn't issued.

I ended making them fill in forms to submit their complaints to me about Security, reviewed them and concluded that they were in the wrong. Especially considering one of the reports were "Security was disrespectful" to me. To which I wrote in my reply that "disrespectful security" is to be expected when you are challenging them to constantly submit reports and evidence and witness statements on recorded tape. That also as an IAA they should expect receive hostile responses from other staff members due to the nature of their job and finally (on the wiki) it even states the job challenges people's personal relationships.

I don't believe I ever heard from them again towards the end of the shift. But I did end up giving the Warden Carte Blanche to remove their headsets/security access since for the first hour of the round they were just being pure shitlers about people's arrests.

[Twinmold]

Just because there are bad Internal Affairs Agents doesn't mean removal of the titles is necessary. The main job of Internal Affairs ISN'T just looking into security, but ALL station complaints in regards to peer-verse-peer basis. The second job is ensuring Space Law and Standard Operating Procedure is being followed through for Security appropriately for the situation when a valid complaint comes up. Lastly is trials when security has nothing more than circumstantial evidence rather than hard undeniable evidence (hence why trials are so rare, there's VERY few cases this ever applies and trials take a long time to set up). The Internal Affairs guide even tells them that them getting in the way of security or being overbearing will lead to their access to security being revoked by the Head of Security, hence meaning security would have every right to arrest them in that case. They retain their access as long as they aren't getting in the way. From a legal standpoint, they should only really be getting involved when it's a Capitol-level offense or permanent detention worthy. Otherwise, if they wish to talk to a prisoner, they must do so after the prisoner is already in the cell, presuming they are not told they can't by the Warden or higher.

Are trials rare, yes. But lawyers and public defenders aren't just 'trial monkeys': They look out for the best interest of the crew and company. Security is crew, too, and people tend to forget that. If someone is being an utter shit and not getting the message clear through IC means after multiple incidents, adminhelp: They might just end up getting job-banned from Internal Affairs and having their contract terminated.

[SomeGuy9283]

1 minute ago, Twinmold said:

Are trials rare, yes. But lawyers and public defenders aren't just 'trial monkeys': They look out for the best interest of the crew and company. Security is crew, too, and people tend to forget that. If someone is being an utter shit and not getting the message clear through IC means after multiple incidents, adminhelp: They might just end up getting job-banned from Internal Affairs and having their contract terminated.

The point of this change would be to make it more clear they serve for settling disputes and complaints, not jumping to the aid of the clown who broke the bridge window. The titles wouldn't be being changed because there are bad players, but rather so that potentially good players are less confused about what their focus need be.

[ZN23X]

I don't think IAAs that are unimaginably annoying are bad IAAs I actually in a wierd way they are the best IAAs. They cause disruption in an already volatile environment. They take departments that would normally run a vanilla routine and throw a wrench in it  (most of the times to my detriment as I work sec primarily) but standing back and looking at it as a whole, they make it more interesting.

...and that's what we are here for. Or at least what I'm here for. Interesting.

Edited March 26, 2017 by ZN23X

[Twinmold]

I suggest taking a proper look at what 'lawyers' actually do. They do help settle disputes, they do help clear up legal terms with the crew, they do look into complaints (lawyers for companies, for example, really do this to figure out potential harm and counter it if possible). That is, the title Lawyer is actually perfectly fine for what it stands for, it's just people forget that lawyers do more than just trials, even in the real world. They are there to help answer any questions someone might have and settle disputes (preferably without going to court as then they don't have to put in all the extra work and still get paid pretty well).

 

Public Defender isn't something that really should be here, merely for the fact that Public Defender is actually picked from the crew at large when there AREN'T any Internal Affair Agents or Lawyers. Public Defender is the one that I feel gives the confusion, since it sounds like protect everyone from shitcurity.

[SomeGuy9283]

18 minutes ago, Twinmold said:

IPublic Defender isn't something that really should be here, merely for the fact that Public Defender is actually picked from the crew at large when there AREN'T any Internal Affair Agents or Lawyers. Public Defender is the one that I feel gives the confusion, since it sounds like protect everyone from shitcurity.

Sounds good. I acknowledge the IAAs have numerous paralegal functions, so Lawyer should be fine. Someone get a PR up to kill "Public Defender" with acid.

[Shadeykins]

I wouldn't mind seeing both of these die in a fire. They just encourage people to operate outside of the actual role of the IAA position.

 

Lawyer is unneeded as well, it just encourages Phoenix Wright memery and IAA's are seldom competent enough to be part of a trial - especially those with the "lawyer" title.

[Jared12100]

I see no major issue with the titles. IAAs are supposed to give legal advice to prsioners who request them, just like a lawyer or public defender, simply because they need to make sure space law and SoP was followed during said prisoners arrest and detainment which can easily become a main thing IAAs do simply because security is shit sometimes. For example: I had to defend a clown once because an officer arrested him for slipping people with banana's on the grounds that it was a workplace hazard, on code green. Obviously IAAs have more things to them then JUST that but still.

 

 

[Love-To-Hug]

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Edited March 27, 2017 by Love-To-Hug

[Purpose2]

2 hours ago, Love-To-Hug said:

no

Please stop. You've been really fairly toxic lately, and I ask that you take a step back and examine your recent interaction

21 hours ago, Twinmold said:

Just because there are bad Internal Affairs Agents doesn't mean removal of the titles is necessary.

For this and many other reasons, I'd oppose removing this. A good lawyer has gotten me out of shitcurity being shitcurity more times than not. And I've never had an IAA be a pain to me while playing security... if you have them being a pain in the ass, maybe you're the shitcurity...

[Love-To-Hug]

49 minutes ago, Purpose2 said:

Please stop. You've been really fairly toxic lately, and I ask that you take a step back and examine your recent interaction

Was a failed attempt at being cheeky. I just thought it was funny that people unanimously didn't like this so I thought it was funny to toss a 'no' on the pile. I apologize.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Love-To-Hug