Purge telebatons from the codebase

[Doukan]

i ded pls nerf

No really this is the THIRD time I, a chainsaw wielding maniac high on god knows what, have been stopped in my tracks by a teeny plastic baton wielded by a goddamn weedy command member. At least let me block it or something.

Share thoughts, most of mine revolve around how it came to be that permanent instatsunning winsticks became so omnipresent amongst command, at least the bloody stun batons can be emp'd and you can dodge the golden bolt.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Doukan

[Sothangel]

Telebatons should, at the very least, not be able to chain-stun. Considering how heads are not security, they shouldn't be able to telebaton-drag people to the brig... Which happens daily. I wouldn't mind if they were removed to be absolutely honest. Heads have a flash for self-defence. And if someone's wearing sunglasses? Tough shit!

[ZN23X]

Hate using telebatons personally but the only command I play is HOS so I'd just pew pew pew or bash you with my shield anyways (or die when you EMP my mechanical heart)

I store it in my box to use in a pinch. I've never had to except just to take it for a spin.

I could see the need to add a longer cool down to the telescopic so it can't chain stun. Don't think it needs to be outright removed.

[Rurik]

A practical person would probably want to see the winsticks nerfed rather than completely removed. However I am not a practical person, and would love to see it purged in fire. That being said, a cooldown on the instant "i win" stuns would be reasonable. 

On a side note, whenever I see someone not security/captain chainstun someone and drag them all the way to sec, a part of me dies.

[Purpose2]

Currently telebatons keep you down 100% of the time. Personally I'd happily see that nerfed to 75% of the time.

[Doukan]

I'd be perfectly happy with them if they dealt stamina damage/had to aim for the legs to take work/weren't 100% guaranteed, ideally they'd be replaced with disablers though.

As of right now and for a while now they've been the objectively superior combat option to pretty much everything unless ballistics/memchems are involved and that doesn't sit well with muh balance.

[ZN23X]

1 hour ago, Rurik said:

That being said, a cooldown on the instant "i win" stuns would be reasonable. 

Yea...aside from antags who have abilities to break stuns, or if sec is lucky enough to get adrenals from sci, stuns pretty much decide who wins the fight in general, telescopic baton or otherwise

[Purpose2]

The idea of them is to keep a head of staff safe so they can get away...

Currently they're used to stunlock. They should be used as a 'smack on the legs to stun them' then 'run the fuck away'

While keeping someone stun locked, I can make cuffs, and cuff them, while keeping them stunlocked... which seems like the wrong way to be.

[Machofish]

In regards to the original sample, I was pretty sure that chainsaws do have a reasonable chance to block melee - including stun batons and telebatons. If not, then it should be addressed since I'm pretty sure double-eswords have a pretty good chance of blocking melee, but that's nitpicking and besides the point, so I'll leave it be.

I do think it's a bit excessive that all heads of staff get a telebaton. Telebatons encourage heads of staff to overstep themselves and generally I think it encourages more aggressive behaviour from the heads - the "Maslow's Hammer" concept applies in a very literal sense here. Heads of staff should have some sort of contingency to stop random greytiders or griefers in their department from decking everyone with a toolbox, but the telebaton often gets used beyond that. I don't know if anyone else remembers how the telebaton used to be a few years back, but I think many of the problems related to the telebaton is that they, to my knowledge, were never intended to serve as a 'safe' lightweight self-defence weapon for all of command.

I seem to remember that originally, the telebaton was a HoS-specific weapon (this was back before the HoS had the telescopic shield or the replica antique gun), it was essentially a flat upgrade to the stun baton in terms of damage output and portability. To be frank, I think the flash was a good enough self-defence weapon for the heads - not including whatever extra weapons or items they accumulated from their own department (i.e. RDs getting their hands on RnD gear, the CE having easy access to stunprod materials, the CMO being able to load knockout drugs in the hypospray). The lag-susceptible, short-duration nature of the telebaton's knockdown also means that it specifically rewards veteran players and powergamers while punishing new players who try to use it.

To be fair, I believe the telebaton's current rendition is meant to balance the fact that flashes no longer stun players outside of specific contexts, but it does seem a bit over the top that every head of staff is entitled to a weapon that can effectively function as a longer-duration stun baton when used properly.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Machofish

[necaladun]

I'd actually really like to see the stun function on a telebaton do 1-3 damage. Not enough to be useful, but enough that people can't just use it all the time without it being obviously assault.

[Rurik]

Thats actually a pretty neat idea Necaladun

[SomeGuy9283]

Since this server has a command bodyguard and lots of civillians to hire departmental guards from, the only heads that really need telebatons are the HoS, Captain, and(maybe) HoP. Otherwise, their flash and access should allow them to momentarily stun and gtfo just fine. Unless their valid hunting in maintenance, in which case shame on them.

[Shadeykins]

Drop the reliability of them, but nerfs beyond that? Not so much.

The #1 reason batons get used is on derpy, trespassing greytide (to remove them from a department) and people who won't bloody well peacefully accept a demotion. Security 9/10 times will ignore you calling for them if it involves a demotion.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Shadeykins

[Purpose2]

@necaladunthats a really interesting idea, I actually really like that. That'd be really easy to change code-wise as well, but would have larger IC implications... hmmm...

[Love-To-Hug]

I think implementing Neca's suggestion is just going to make all Command start carrying cable cuffs, which will only worsen the problem.

[Purpose2]

They do already.

[SomanB]

Player behavior wise, making telebatons do a small amount of damage per baton isn't going to change much. If they're a verified antag, it's a tiny buff to the disarm->harm stunlock rotation. If they're a non-antag shitter, nobody will care if they take 15-20 points of brute on the stunlock trip to sec.  If the head themselves is the shitter, damage isn't going to slow down the behavior, and it'll honestly be welcome as "not only do I get to lel stunlock, I get to hurt 'im too!".

 

Plus, you can still just baton and cuff.

 

I'd honestly just swap the telebaton for pepper spray and a flash.  Pepperspray/flash makes more sense for a department head to be carrying, over the telememe baton.

[SomeGuy9283]

I would support the telebaton being removed from most heads, but I did think of a problem: the CE will likely have to deal with engineers in hardsuits, immune to flash/pepperspray.

[Love-To-Hug]

If there were a nerf I would propose that harmbatonning with a telebaton gives you a short cooldown on when you can next stun someone, to break up the stun harm harm stun cycle.

[Shadeykins]

If memory serves telebatons got nerfed once before in the past, I recall them at one point not being able to reliably stunlock people.

Honestly if we could just go back to that, that'd be enough - the whole damage shpeel is just going to get a whole shwack of Heads needlessly brigged for battery because they didn't realize their baton does damage now.

[Love-To-Hug]

22 hours ago, Purpose2 said:

They do already.

A lot don't because the baton can stunlock. Just spamming it on the person while you drag them out of the restricted area is enough.

[pinatacolada]

I was thinking either a) make the cooldown between uses slightly greater than the normal stun it does, or b) allow it to only stun people standing up

either one would make it a self defense hit and run away thing

[saywat_the_15th]

I support the idea of having a longer cooldown between stuns, that or the standing up thing paired with aiming for legs to stun.

[Doukan]

10 hours ago, Shadeykins said:

If memory serves telebatons got nerfed once before in the past, I recall them at one point not being able to reliably stunlock people.

Honestly if we could just go back to that, that'd be enough - the whole damage shpeel is just going to get a whole shwack of Heads needlessly brigged for battery because they didn't realize their baton does damage now.

A while ago they were much more robust yes, dealt 10 damage and stunned, they used to be a lot more restricted however and were only held by people you'd expect to need such a weapon.

The problem I have with TBs in their current state is that they give a lot of robustness potential to people who really shouldn't have it, how many times do we see comdom heads "arresting" subordinates for real or imagined petty offences dragging them all the way to the brig without effort thanks to their winsticks? Their assumed purpose is "self defence" while in reality at current they're almost always used offensively to rush antags and never to actually escape.

If they can't be outright removed as the horribly unbalanced memestick they are then at least they should be nerfed into the ground. Either have the admins come down hard on heads who misuse it (not going to happen), or severely reduce its effectiveness as an offensive tool.

I'd propose a reduction of the stun a mere couple of seconds (slightly less than as long as it takes to rest and get back up) with a requiremnt to actually aim for a leg, and for it to be ineffective against already downed persons, as well as necaladun's 1-3 damage. That ought to be more than sufficient for the "running away" factor that the baton is ostensibly supposed to be for whilst removing entirely it's potential for comdomish abuse and outright combat superiority, as well as requiring responsible use (so no more "he just stunned u lol not a crime).

Edited March 31, 2017 by Doukan

[Love-To-Hug]

None of the suggestions I've seen so far in this thread actually stop the act of stuncuffing, and would just guarantee that all heads have a pair of cuffs at the ready instead of relying on stunlock. (Except for, of course, the initial suggestion to remove telebatons entirely.)

The way I see it, there's only three viable options if you want to get rid of a telebaton user's ability to detain people:

Option 1: Make it take longer to cuff people.
Option 2: Make the stun so short you can't cuff people in the stun frame.
Option 3: Remove telebatons.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Love-To-Hug