Adminorazine

[Shadeykins]

Admin Key: Kyet, Spacemanspark, Jayfeather, Twinmold (As I'm not privy to what transpires in asay, I'm just including all admins online at the time).

 

Your Discord name (if applicable): Shadeykins

 

Complaint:

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm not mistaken the following should happen in the given scenario:

You're Traitor McSteve, as Traitor McSteve you've got the stock and standard objectives - kill a guy, steal this, escape alive.

Your theft objective is pretty simple (as they all are), so you don't sweat it much. You get it out of the way and move on to the next thing.

You've got to kill a virologist in this case, and he's refusing to leave his lab. So! You use a bomb, drive him out, and pen him.

Nobody - literally nobody - is the wiser. He screams once after waking up somehow, but he's ignored and you're still in the clear. You toss his body off into space, and make your way off to the escape shuttle which has been cordoned off by some security forces due to some virus that got loose.

Something occurs that's no fault of your own, and it's mistakenly attributed to you. In this case the tesla engine has gotten loose, and someone thinks that you're shooting tesla bolts for some reason - despite this being literally impossible to perform on the escape shuttle (as power gloves require cable under your feet). Fast on the trigger, a sole ERT immediately attempts to murder you on the spot rather than subduing you. You back off as they start shooting you, identify yourself, and only try to disarm them once it's clear they're going to just kill you anyways. Seemingly they don't care that you appear to have no weapon, that despite (apparently) being able to shoot tesla bolts you don't shoot one at them to simply stun them, or that after disarming them you really make no hostile overtures, and subsequently just kill you anyways. After realizing their mistake they don't even bother to make an in-character attempt to revive you. They leave you dead where they shot you, and walk off. This runs directly counter to Space Law, SoP, and pretty much just about any established convention for this server.

You ahelp it, and seeing as you got murdered for no good reason, at no fault of your own, by another player who wasn't an antag (who used inordinate force without much justification), who continued escalating after you were clearly trying to defuse the situation, you get rez'd.

To me, the above scenario seems like exactly what should happen, and to my knowledge is the standard procedure for what action should be taken regarding the affected person due to the following rules being in place and subsequently being broken (even over a misunderstanding).

Rule #7 Self-Antagging (Specifically Murder and Self-Defense)

Murder is not acceptable for non-antags. Killing should only be done in extreme self-defense, during an authorized execution, or in any situation Security can employ lethal force. If you wish to murder, or at least seriously injure, someone, Administrator permission is required;

Violence capable of inflicting serious damage to someone, especially anything that places them into a critical state, is reserved for Antagonists. Outside Self-Defense, this kind of violence is not permitted;

Self-defense is allowed to the extent of saving your own life. Putting someone into Critical Condition is considered self-defense only if they attempted to severely hurt/kill you. Preemptively disabling someone, responding with disproportionate force, or hitting someone while they are already down, is not self-defense;

Rule #8 Validhunting

Evidence of Antagonist activity is required before you take steps to treat anyone as an Antagonist. For example, you may not force random people to drink holy water or randomly drag people into the Chapel

Rule #10 Corporate Security (This loosely applies in this scenario, as ERT-like authorities have always had to abide by security's playbook)

As a member of Security, higher standards of play are expected of you. You are expected to follow Space Law and Standard Operating Procedure correctly, when playing Security.

 

The complaint amounts to the fact that the given scenario above did happen, and no rez was given. Even when brought up, it was not explicitly denied (there wasn't at any point a "no, that's not the policy, sorry") but the idea of there being one was just flat-out ignored. I'm not upset at the admin who was controlling the "ERT-like" security member who murdered me (misunderstandings occur), but the fact that a rez was not even remotely on the table seems more than a little ludicrous to me and runs explicitly counter to my understanding of the server's policy on these types of things.

I honestly feel as though that if the situation were any different (in this case, the person was a player and not an admin) more substantive action (a rez and probably a player note against the offending person) would have been taken to correct the situation - instead it was handwaved as "oh well that's the game". Again, I'm not personally upset at the admin involved, but I am highly perturbed by the decision not to correct the situation, as well as the decision to opt for the non-solution of having almost two and a half hours of my time and effort wasted because of someone else's lack of game knowledge.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Shadeykins

[Kyet]

I was the marine who killed you on the shuttle.

A bunch of ERT + marines were spawned on the shuttle, because much of the station crew was infected with viruses. Our orders were to ensure nobody who was infected, was allowed to leave on the shuttle. An announcement was made to this effect, including summary execution for people who were not complying. The event was done knowing that we'd probably end up having to shoot any infected crew who tried to board.

When I saw you, you appeared to be emitting tesla shocks. Also, I believe you were on fire. You looked like you were infected. And it had previously been announced via centcom announcement that any infected crew attempting to leave on the shuttle could be executed. I did not even have a non-lethal weapon - solgov marine only gets an ARG. I had literally no way to detain you non-lethally.

I wasn't aware of the tesla being loose, because I only came back to the game shortly before another admin decided to run containment, and the outfit I had (solgov marine) did not even have a headset. So I couldn't even hear anything that was being said on radio about the tesla. From my point of view, you were emitting tesla shocks in a crowded shuttle, and our squad was there specifically to remove anyone who was a hazard. You were a hazard.

Afterwards, when I heard about the engine, I realized I was incorrect, and I PM'ed you to apologize. It was a chaotic situation with bullets flying in every direction, and I did not have the benefit of the information you had.

The squad, and their mission, was announced by centcom to the whole crew well in advance of the shuttle docking. If you were an antagonist, and determined to escape, not wanting to take your chances with the NT military squad, you could always have taken a pod.

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by tzo

[Twinmold]

First off, thank you for making a complaint.

The end round ERT was called in due to the understanding of a virus onboard the Cyberiad (it would seem it was a hidden virus, at that) that was harmful in nature to prevent the virus from escaping to the best knowledge of the ERT. The ERT who shot you (which was yes an admin) thought the tesla zaps were coming from you, something that should have been obvious not to have been but I also didn't see the exact situation, as I was monitoring the entrance of the shuttle rather than the main shuttle itself.

To be honest, a rejuv was not something I thought about at the time when it came up, as my first response was delete the tesla that shouldn't have been there in the first place and how the hell it got there. The end of the round was extremely hectic, considering the numerous other violations that were also occurring at the same time. It wasn't that rejuv was being denied, it literally hadn't crossed my mind. If anything, your complaint is targeted towards me. Had I known the actual situation going on and it been on my mind, a rejuv would be standard.

I do apologize that this had adverse affect on your round.

[Shadeykins]

17 minutes ago, Twinmold said:

The end of the round was extremely hectic, considering the numerous other violations that were also occurring at the same time. It wasn't that rejuv was being denied, it literally hadn't crossed my mind. If anything, your complaint is targeted towards me. Had I known the actual situation going on and it been on my mind, a rejuv would be standard.

I do apologize that this had adverse affect on your round.

I explicitly asked if you were going to provide one in the ahelp I sent you. You didn't respond, and instead sent a response that didn't touch on my ahelp about it. This is why I figured I was being flat-out ignored in regards to this.

19 minutes ago, tzo said:

When I saw you, you appeared to be emitting tesla shocks. Also, I believe you were on fire. You looked like you were infected. And it had previously been announced via centcom announcement that any infected crew attempting to leave on the shuttle could be executed. I did not even have a non-lethal weapon - solgov marine only gets an ARG. I had literally no way to detain you non-lethally.

Upon hearing the centcom order regarding the military squad guarding the shuttle, you could easily have taken a pod instead.

The only weapon that emits tesla shocks is the tesla revolver and power gloves. Power gloves require a powered wire beneath you, and a tesla revolver requires that you're holding one in your hand. I was unarmed and fled from you when you started shooting me. You only had an ARG yes, but you also had security ERT members who could detain people, and medical ERT members who can identify who has a virus with a HUD on.

If you're only there to make sure infected people don't get on the shuttle, you probably shouldn't be shooting everyone and their mother, and instead be waiting for your medical ERT member to identify who needs to go.

I was on fire and not dying because I was the CE, and was wearing the CE's hardsuit, which would be a good indication I probably wasn't infected - not that being on fire is in any way relevant. If anything, you immediately shooting people who are on fire and using that as unneeded justification (as the complaint is not about you) is even stranger. Also, due to certain circumstances, the escape shuttle was the only thing I could get on - as I was ejected from the containment area and shot over to escape by the containment field, while trying to repair the meteor damaged engine and recontain the loose Tesla.

Also, telling me that you arbitrarily shooting me over a misunderstanding is somehow acceptable because I should have been on a pod instead is just flat out ludicrous, especially considering that this isn't about you making a mistake (honestly, it happens). it's about how no consideration was given regarding a revive even when I specifically broached the subject in ahelps.

This is the entire reason I didn't name you despite knowing you were the SolGov marine, and didn't mention you specifically in my complaint anywhere other than the header. This complaint is not about you personally, it's about admin policy on revives.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Shadeykins

[Spacemanspark]

Outside of agreeing with Kyet, I didn't really contribute to this scenario very much. I missed your ahelp and Twinmold got it instead, before getting swarmed with a bunch of other crap if I recall.

[Shadeykins]

1 minute ago, Spacemanspark said:

Outside of agreeing with Kyet, I didn't really contribute to this scenario very much. I missed your ahelp and Twinmold got it instead, before getting swarmed with a bunch of other crap if I recall.

Neither did Jayfeather. I named the two of you as well to try and make it as clear as possible that this complaint is not about Kyet, and is about policy.

[necaladun]

Atm there is no policy. Having one might be a good idea, but currently is always at admin discretion. 

Flat out grief is pretty much always rejuv'd.

Misunderstandings like this are a grey area. We don't want to heal and protect everyone from any mistake or misunderstanding - shit happens and that's part of ss13. I don't want it to be a clear policy that mistakes are always gonna be fixed by admins, least it make people less afraid to make mistakes, or just plain demanding of admins to fix mistakes. 

 

[Shadeykins]

On 2017-04-05 at 2:08 AM, necaladun said:

Atm there is no policy. Having one might be a good idea, but currently is always at admin discretion. 

Flat out grief is pretty much always rejuv'd.

Misunderstandings like this are a grey area. We don't want to heal and protect everyone from any mistake or misunderstanding - shit happens and that's part of ss13. I don't want it to be a clear policy that mistakes are always gonna be fixed by admins, least it make people less afraid to make mistakes, or just plain demanding of admins to fix mistakes. 

 

From my understanding (based off Twinmold's post) they missed my ahelp when I broached the subject.

Which is completely fine, at the time of making this post I wasn't aware of that which made it seem as though it was being deliberately denied despite another player summarily executing my character over a misunderstanding/lack of game knowledge (given that it is genuinely impossible in that scenario to emit tesla shocks).

[FalseIncarnate]

You actually can emit electrical shocks similar to a tesla orb or power gloves via a chemical reaction (https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/blob/ecaf9eb71582ae8fb5ca4015b445842c837ec33d/code/modules/reagents/chemistry/recipes/pyrotechnics.dm#L392), though this is unlikely in to be something you'd commonly see in the first place. It also has a reaction message so it would be a bit more obvious that it was the reaction and not another source.

 

Just wanted to toss that in to clear up your last bit about being impossible to emit tesla shocks, as it is possible.

Edited April 19, 2017 by FalseIncarnate

[Shadeykins]

10 hours ago, FalseIncarnate said:

You actually can emit electrical shocks similar to a tesla orb or power gloves via a chemical reaction (https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/blob/ecaf9eb71582ae8fb5ca4015b445842c837ec33d/code/modules/reagents/chemistry/recipes/pyrotechnics.dm#L392), though this is unlikely in to be something you'd commonly see in the first place. It also has a reaction message so it would be a bit more obvious that it was the reaction and not another source.

 

Just wanted to toss that in to clear up your last bit about being impossible to emit tesla shocks, as it is possible.

Teslium also unavoidably shocks the person from which it originates too, if I'm not mistaken.

[Twinmold]

As it seems this has long-since passed its age, moving to resolved.