Maybe it's time we think about removing secborgs

[Love-To-Hug]

Just got out of a shadowling round where things were looking pretty tense at the outset. It was really looking like we, the crew, were going to lose. Bodies were pouring into medbay.

Then the secborgs formed a mob that went through maintenance. They were unstoppable. They stomped a mudhole into all the shadowlings.

When i mentioned this after the round, someone said they wanted secborgs to stay because 'it's the only way to deal with shadowlings really'... but that kind of proves just how overpowered they are?

Other stations have been getting rid of them and I'm really starting to see why. They're an enormous boon to Security in a way that makes the game much harder to balance, where the power difference between a Security team without secborgs and one with secborgs is rather enormous.

[Travelling Merchant]

Against removing, for limiting.

3-5 sec borgs max, not ten.

[Love-To-Hug]

Just now, Travelling Merchant said:

Against removing, for limiting.

3-5 sec borgs max, not ten.

There were only like 4 secborgs in that round. It does not take a lot of them for them to have a gigantic impact on the round.

And that's like, a 50% roster increase in officers alone.

[SigholtStarsong]

Avatar applies here.

Let's just remove Shadowlings instead, it solves all of the problems here plus the fact that Shadowlings exist! </s>

--------

I'm strongly against removing Security borgs - There are shifts where Secborgs are basically the only semblance of Security left on the Station, and even then there's no less than three hard counters to them, excluding the downsides Secborgs already have.

[Love-To-Hug]

Shadowlings aren't the problem here (or rather, they are their own problem). They are an enormous power increase to Security in every single gametype. That they made the shadowling round a joke is just an easy metric to see how powerful they are.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Love-To-Hug

[SigholtStarsong]

A competent crew makes Shadowmemes a joke.

Security borgs have plenty of hard counters and downsides, and very little to merit their removal.

If we accepted the argument that they're overpowered, then every borg is - Mediborgs have a set of unstealable surgical tools always on hand, Janiborgs basically make the Janitor jobless, Engineering borgs have unstealable power tools AND an RCD. The only exception is the Service/standard borgs, and they are pretty much utterly useless.

[Love-To-Hug]

The other borgs don't go after antags.

They have all access and can spam the holy hell out of the disabler. And even if they couldn't, just having two secborgs together pretty much renders their weaknesses moot.

Plus they get really hard to kill with EMPs later into the round when they have bluespace power cells.

[FPK]

My issue with security borgs is their ability to spam their disabler and baton with no drawbacks. The power consumption of both of these tools is low enough that there's no drawback to just spamming them. While I am in favor of removing security borgs for other reasons, I know that removal is heavily opposed by synthetic players who love to play security without being held accountable for their actions, by hiding behind synthetic laws and the inability to effectively fire a borg from a specific department, without resorting to force.

I propose that the security cyborg disabler, baton, and cuffs be limited either by a severe cool-down, limited supply which has to be refilled at a cyborg charger, or greatly increased power consumption.

Edited April 9, 2017 by FPK
grammar

[Love-To-Hug]

The fact they aren't 'real' Security is an issue, yes. As long as they're acting within their lawset they don't need to adhere to SoP. The most you can hope for is the AI to discipline them but the AI is generally so overworked that they have precious little time to try and play HoS to their Secborgs.

[SigholtStarsong]

Two borgs in proxmity does not "negate their downsides", even slightly.

Flash each borg, they're both disabled for a few seconds.
They don't move very fast unless they have VTEC, at which point they about make pace with a human. Stun 'em and outrun 'em.

EMPs are great and all, but thrall a roboticist/get robo access/emag and suddenly you can flash->pull cell and the borg's out of service. You can even pull the brain at that point if you want the borg gone.

Cut AI control wires. They have to stop and hack each door back individually. Bonus points if you cut the power to the door.

Teleport into the RD's office, self destruct->enable.

Flash-spam them and just beat the borg to death. Hit, hit, flash, hit, hit, flash.

Edited April 9, 2017 by SigholtStarsong

[Anticept]

It's piss easy to stop a secborg. Just flash it.

A mob of them I can see being a problem, but so would a mob of lethal armed security.

That said, people need to practice running more often too. That includes flashing a secborg and just getting the hell out. People don't need to try and kill everything they run across... sometimes it's better to just disarm/disable and RUN.

One part I am in agreement with: greatly increasing the heating on the disabler. Even without rapid disabler cooldown, it's still pretty spammy.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Anticept

[Love-To-Hug]

4 minutes ago, Anticept said:

It's piss easy to stop a secborg. Just flash it.

A mob of them I can see being a problem, but so would a mob of lethal armed security.

That said, people need to practice running more often too. That includes flashing a secborg and just getting the hell out. People don't need to try and kill everything they run across... sometimes it's better to just disarm/disable and RUN.

One part I am in agreement with: greatly increasing the heating on the disabler. Even without rapid disabler cooldown, it's still pretty spammy.

Run where? Borgs have access to every major area by default and, more importantly, are spaceworthy.

Most of the strategies you folks are describing are for traitor rounds, but we have several gametypes. Borgs are quite exceedingly powerful in ling and vamp rounds as well.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Love-To-Hug

[Anticept]

They aren't omniscient. Just get out of sight!

That said, a mob of secborgs... just shadowwalk or whatever to the other side of them to the areas they already cleared?

Edited April 9, 2017 by Anticept

[Love-To-Hug]

I feel like the power of these things is being significantly downplayed. Even with the weaknesses you describe they're much harder to take down than a standard sec officer, and they don't take up any Security slots, which means it's just a net gain to have them. Furthermore all of Security benefits from their ability to open doors, making stings that much more effective.

Very difficult to balance around that.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Love-To-Hug

[Anticept]

Which is why I say, the biggest issue is their disabler spam. The rest you can usually get away from unless you really fuck up.

As for security: HoP can open a sec slot every minute.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Anticept

[Love-To-Hug]

Security Officers don't spawn with even half of all the gear they need, so that there can be more slots isn't really that valid. A lot of prepwork has to be done to support a larger force. Shipments, deliveries, an experienced HoP, and some coordination within command are all required.

Secborgs start with everything they need and are even spaceworthy.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Love-To-Hug

[Anticept]

Look. To make it real simple. The crew played smart and rolled up a force to be reckoned with.

Shadowlings also have sonic screech. It's a pretty powerful ability. Fire one of those off and escape is easy, even with a large mob.

I KNOW sec borgs are powerful because of that disabler. The rest not so much without upgrades. The only part that I think needs adjustments is the disabler.

Outright deleting secbogs is an *extreme* measure. I'm much more in favor of doing small changes at a time.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Anticept

[FlattestGuitar]

I've always found Cyborgs to be an incredibly out-of-place aspect of the game. They're very inconsistent mechanically with the other main type of a player character you see - Humans.

Cyborgs lack all the advanced systems made for humans - there are no limbs, no reagents, no sensible stuns and the combat system is a disaster. You can't grab a borg. You can't disarm a borg. No weapons will work against them in a straight up melee fight unless there's ten of you or you're using this one convenient counter that solves the whole problem.

Borgs are one of the "all-or-nothing" mechanics, where a specific counter will easily stop them from steamrolling.

Were we to redo SS13 from ground up, I'd rely on something like IPCs to take the role of Cyborgs - they are much better intertwined with the rest of the game's systems and are already their own bunch of niche mechanics (EMP REEEEEE).

That said, I have yet to see a solution that would please most of the playerbase, considering how popular IPCs are as regular crewmembers.

[Dumbdumn5]

3 minutes ago, FlattestGuitar said:

Were we to redo SS13 from ground up, I'd rely on something like IPCs to take the role of Cyborgs - they are much better intertwined with the rest of the game's systems and are already their own bunch of niche mechanics (EMP REEEEEE).

That said, I have yet to see a solution that would please most of the playerbase, considering how popular IPCs are as regular crewmembers.

As an IPC player, I do agree that I'd have to gut you if you ever planned to do this.

[Anticept]

... why not come up with more unique things for the cyborgs then? Yes, they are kind of out of place, but I'm still not convinced tossing them out would be the answer.

Software viruses for example.

Damage areas too. Not quite in the same matter as the other player entities, but something mechwarriorish. Targetting arms can destroy their weaponry. Targetting legs disables and even stops them from moving. Targetting their chest could damage their power systems. Head for sensors and communications. Stuff like that. Easy to destroy a subsystem (IPC like), but would take some doing to completely destroy it (enough chest damage and you can just pull out the posibrain). They would still retain their vulnerabilities to EMP and flash.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Anticept

[shazbot194]

1 hour ago, SigholtStarsong said:

Flash-spam them and just beat the borg to death. Hit, hit, flash, hit, hit, flash.

Almost every time I play borg and something kills me, its exactly that, like 17/20 times with 2/20 being an emp of some kind. 

 

1 hour ago, FlattestGuitar said:

I've always found Cyborgs to be an incredibly out-of-place aspect of the game. They're very inconsistent mechanically with the other main type of a player character you see - Humans.

Cyborgs lack all the advanced systems made for humans - there are no limbs, no reagents, no sensible stuns and the combat system is a disaster. You can't grab a borg. You can't disarm a borg. No weapons will work against them in a straight up melee fight unless there's ten of you or you're using this one convenient counter that solves the whole problem.

Borgs are one of the "all-or-nothing" mechanics, where a specific counter will easily stop them from steamrolling.

Were we to redo SS13 from ground up, I'd rely on something like IPCs to take the role of Cyborgs - they are much better intertwined with the rest of the game's systems and are already their own bunch of niche mechanics (EMP REEEEEE).

That said, I have yet to see a solution that would please most of the playerbase, considering how popular IPCs are as regular crewmembers.

This gives me a great idea. What if we had a more module style of borg. Where if would be derived from the human tree just like a lot of the alien races are right now, but have it so different parts would apply different stats. For instance, a security borg could have two weapon/hand slots. This would be inherently limiting as the three main modules, zip ties, disablers, and the baton would all be competing for space. In addition there could be a torso mount for something ridiculous like a single use flashbang launcher, or more sensible things like sirens, surgical tools, storage, armor plating, ext. This would allow for more specialized borgs without having to make 100 modules and give features such as damage areas. Even different movement types could be added by changing out the lower body. This is an idea though and would need a ton of work. They also would not replace IPC, just borgs.

[Happy Tim]

You know, we need to ask a question - what is the outcome we wanna get from the shadowling round.

Do we want lings to always win?

Do we want the crew to always always win?

Do we want equal chances for both antags and the crew?

Also, shadowlings aren't the only antags in the game and there are a couple situations, where secborgs are next to being useless. Not that long time ago I remember one nuke ops kiting two sec borgs and a sec officers, who were literally spamming at him, but he still managed to get the upper hand thanks to his crazy adrenals and he simply killed all three. 

Isn't it a bit of house of cards situation that when you move one card, the whole structure might simply collapse? 

On the other hand I agree that standard sec guards feel a bit underpowered, when compared to borgs - at least in a classic "chase and mob" scenario and all those ideas with targetting, viruses and alternative ways of hurting a bot look super spicy.

I think that with current balance, removing secborgs completely would create a batch of brand new problems, connected to other antags, that we aren't discussing here ATM. 

 

[Love-To-Hug]

1 hour ago, Happy Tim said:

I think that with current balance, removing secborgs completely would create a batch of brand new problems, connected to other antags, that we aren't discussing here ATM. 

Thing is, other servers have tried it, and have found the change to be worth keeping. So it's not like there isn't any precedent.

[Spacemanspark]

I come back from drill to find a thread about removing secborgs. Time for a rant before I go to sleep.

They have LOTS of ways to easily destroy them.

Go get a laser pointer, a flash, upgrade your shadowling abilities, teleport into the armory and steal the ion rifle as a vampire/ shadowling, EMP them as a changeling, buy an EMP kit as a traitor, blob... good luck fighting a blob as a secborg, nukies have an emporium of anti secborg shit, get the EMP spell as a wizard or phase jaunt/ teleport into the armory and steal the ion rifle...

Need I go on?

The answer isn't to remove it, the answer is to make an actual strategy when playing an antag role. If four of them charge you, get the fuck out of dodge, don't attack them unless you have a decent group of allies. Similar to instastun, I suppose.

And those "other servers" are /tg/ and their downstreams. Most of them just have it because /tg/ did it.

/tg/ is quite a bit less roleplay standardized than we are. We crack down on synthetics moreso than /tg/ does, and synths there are restrained to one single lawset (asimov) at round start on /tg/, which I imagine made enforcement of secborgs harder.

I must ask, what do you propose as the replacement for secborgs? The peacekeeper module?
If I see that walking neko-hugging-cookie-dispensing-eggplant replacing secborgs, I will go into conniptions.

Spoiler

I'm too tired to form perfectly coherent thoughts. Sorry if I seem harsh about the subject.

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by Spacemanspark

[ZN23X]

Just got done with a shadowling round where @Sollessa was stomping a mud hole in shadowlings. By herself. Nerf Solessa Storm.

...and yes there are rounds where security literally relies on borgs either because of no, few, or dead officers. Their access is essential against certain antags too, like cultists that hide off station.

Edited April 10, 2017 by ZN23X