Maybe it's time we think about removing secborgs

[Tayswift]

Just to be clear, in this round, one of the sec borgs killed two shadowlings, 1v1, as it and the AI boasted several times. Borgs usually don't beat slings in solo combat. This round was just a matter of inexperienced shadowlings, not overpowered borgs. You really shouldn't use a sample size of 1 to push for huge things like removing all sec borgs.

[Love-To-Hug]

5 hours ago, Lightnn_Starky said:

Ive observed from your past suggestions @Love-To-Hug that you only accept what is deemed "adequate" to yourself, that is proved by threads like the ERT one, the "github is a mess and on.. regarding this thread itself, borg is a fairly decent and popular role that doesn't need much change, even less being removed.

This is bait.

 

20 minutes ago, Tayswift said:

Just to be clear, in this round, one of the sec borgs killed two shadowlings, 1v1, as it and the AI boasted several times. Borgs usually don't beat slings in solo combat. This round was just a matter of inexperienced shadowlings, not overpowered borgs. You really shouldn't use a sample size of 1 to push for huge things like removing all sec borgs.

It's not like I just started playing on the server yesterday? Secborgs have always been quite powerful, but the balance dynamic has changed pretty significantly since we became a high-pop server. No longer is Security constantly understaffed at high peak, now they are fully staffed and the small army of borgs makes them a significantly stronger department, and the gametypes don't take a potentially 50% more populated Security dept into consideration.

As for the round in question,  while there was a secborg in particular that killed the shadowlings, from what I learned from the post-round chat they were being whittled down and had no room to breathe. It was not like the secborg marched in on someone who'd never played the game before, they were overwhelmed and were weakened from past encounters.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Love-To-Hug

[necaladun]

I am shocked, just utterly shocked, that no one has yet said "Im ded pls nerf". 

 

We won't be outright removing sec borgs. That's just silly. Don't be silly. 

 

Nerfs might be due. But considering they can be flashed, emped, have their laws messed with, and that there is literally a button you can press to destroy them, I don't think it's that needed. 

[Purpose2]

Suggested nerf: remove their ability to cuff multiple people simultaneously.

One flash bang, and a borg could in theory cuff people in all 8 spaces around him simultaneously.

[Doukan]

Achilles heel isn't any good when the only place to get flashes are gone, new meta is to empty tech storage at round start, the disabler spam is ridiculous too but manageable. Bets thing to do is just avoid them.

Anyway you want to bash the borgs? TACTICAL. TABLES. Works everytime.

[HarakoniWarhawk]

12 minutes ago, Doukan said:

Achilles heel isn't any good when the only place to get flashes are gone,

You do know that both Science, Sec and Robotics have flashes, right?

Hell, Flashes are dirt cheap to produce anyway, it's not like getting a flash is difficult or anything.

About the Disablers people seem to think are OP... Run away rather than staying to fight, it's that simple.

Without the Rapid Disabler Cooling mod from Robotics and the Vtech mod, it's simple to run away from something slower than you, if you don't stay to pick a fight then the 'Disabler spam' won't get you.

As a Sec Borg the only reason I use Disablers so much is that the Stun baton is such a damn power hog.

Hell, it sucks up more power each stun than max lights for a minute and without power cell upgrades that's a bad thing.

[Sothangel]

It's all well and good saying "Run away", but as soon as one disabler strikes you you're a sitting duck for that borg. Doukan's tactical table idea works fantastically well against borgs, I have to say.

[Love-To-Hug]

7 hours ago, necaladun said:

I am shocked, just utterly shocked, that no one has yet said "Im ded pls nerf". 

We won't be outright removing sec borgs. That's just silly. Don't be silly. 

That may be due to the fact I wasn't a shadowling. I, instead, felt very disappointed a very exciting round turned into a bit of a wet fart due to secborg involvement.

I don't see why the idea of removing secborgs is silly when other servers have felt it had a positive impact. Controversial, of course, but silly? That's just silly.

 

12 minutes ago, Lightnn_Starky said:

Noice bait, wait... not actually, it was legitimate criticism to your comportament, i did also mean no offense with that post, its just.... like @necaladun just said, i ded pls nerf.

 

 

SALT

I was not even an antag that round. Trying to rile people up by getting under their skin is what I meant by 'bait', and it's what you are still doing.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Love-To-Hug

[Knightedskull]

As a security borg player myself at times...it is a very limited.     You are literally trading your freedom for the ability of not being down from pain and other downsides to go along with other pluses.   And I have had times where I was nearly the only security player but those were indeed during low pop times.
But I don't believe we should remove them.   With them there they would encourage antags to actually plan to deal with it.
"eh, just one sec borg, no biggy."
"A small mob of them this shift? Damn, I should break into the RD/barricade them somewhere."

As was said before : a removal is an extreme measure.  If they are so strong despite huge drawbacks then suggest a nerf such as a reduction in disabler spam ( can even make it to where after so many shots they have to 'reload' aka cooldown ).

[Doukan]

7 hours ago, HarakoniWarhawk said:

You do know that both Science, Sec and Robotics have flashes, right?

Hell, Flashes are dirt cheap to produce anyway, it's not like getting a flash is difficult or anything.

About the Disablers people seem to think are OP... Run away rather than staying to fight, it's that simple.

Without the Rapid Disabler Cooling mod from Robotics and the Vtech mod, it's simple to run away from something slower than you, if you don't stay to pick a fight then the 'Disabler spam' won't get you.

As a Sec Borg the only reason I use Disablers so much is that the Stun baton is such a damn power hog.

Hell, it sucks up more power each stun than max lights for a minute and without power cell upgrades that's a bad thing.

Yeah and all those places require access, or hacking into somewhere where somebody will see you do it or just straight up mugging someone. All of which is a whole lot of effort and risk, especially when the thing you're trying to counter can lol baton you on sight and reel you in with ease.

[HarakoniWarhawk]

43 minutes ago, Doukan said:

Yeah and all those places require access, or hacking into somewhere where somebody will see you do it or just straight up mugging someone. All of which is a whole lot of effort and risk, especially when the thing you're trying to counter can lol baton you on sight and reel you in with ease.

If anyone is that desperate about getting Flashes they probally aren't a Antag.

EMP flashlights have multiple uses, are indistinguishable from regular ones and cripple Borgs for longer. Hell, it even drains their disabler.

If as a non antag your running about flashing Borgs, your just being a shitler.

As a Antag, you have multiple tools to deal with Borgs, as a non Antag you shouldn't be breaking into places to steal Flashes.

 

[Doukan]

31 minutes ago, HarakoniWarhawk said:

If anyone is that desperate about getting Flashes they probally aren't a Antag.

EMP flashlights have multiple uses, are indistinguishable from regular ones and cripple Borgs for longer. Hell, it even drains their disabler.

If as a non antag your running about flashing Borgs, your just being a shitler.

As a Antag, you have multiple tools to deal with Borgs, as a non Antag you shouldn't be breaking into places to steal Flashes.

 

Naturally, unless of course there's a bad AI but that's a whole other scenario. That and TC items are no good for poor Vampires and shadowlings either.

It'd be better IMO if flashes were more widespread and weren't considered "weapons", for something so easily mass producible and not really all that useful or even dangerous outside a few specific uses they're locked down rather tightly.

[HarakoniWarhawk]

1 minute ago, Doukan said:

Naturally, unless of course there's a bad AI but that's a whole other scenario. That and TC items are no good for poor Vampires and shadowlings either.

Aye, bad Ai's are bloody annoying.

Though from what I remember, both Vamps and Slings have abilities that allow them to deal with Borgs.

2 minutes ago, Doukan said:

It'd be better IMO if flashes were more widespread and weren't considered "weapons", for something so easily mass producible and not really all that useful or even dangerous outside a few specific uses they're locked down rather tightly.

Agreed, as it stands the only regulated version of the flash I think should be considered a weapon is the Flash bulbs for the Mobile flasher.

A Flash is mostly used in Robotics to be honest, they always need more for Borg heads.

[shazbot194]

39 minutes ago, Doukan said:

Naturally, unless of course there's a bad AI but that's a whole other scenario. That and TC items are no good for poor Vampires and shadowlings either.

It'd be better IMO if flashes were more widespread and weren't considered "weapons", for something so easily mass producible and not really all that useful or even dangerous outside a few specific uses they're locked down rather tightly.

I bet if people asked robotics, depending who is manning the desk, they would be more then happy to give them out. Plus with shadowling, vamps, and cult, wouldn't it then be a point to thrall, convert, or control the robotisist or rd so they can mass produce them, or hell, just break in and make a couple. Meaning that strategy can win over raw power. And I totally agree they aren't really weapons anymore except mounted versions.

[Dinarzad]

Wouldn't be sad in the slightest if Sec Borgs were obliterated from the code. They may have counters, but in a vast majority of rounds I play or watch, Security borgs tend to be the cause of a majority of the salt in a round, and generally cause a lot of shit or tow the line on their laws an excrutiatingly high amount.
But. That said.
The code doesn't revolve around me or my personal hatreds, and they DO have a selection of counters. I'd say it's not too extreme to up the cell cost of their stuff, so they can't spam into oblivion.... but then again Bluespace Cells exist, so. /shrug

[Shadeykins]

Well this is silly. Last I checked the shadowling ice-vein ability actually applied a short-term stun to borgs.

If you have so many thralls as to warrant ten security borgs a romp through maintenance, you have enough thralls for one of them to grab the RD's ID and blow the borgs... Or enough to make an EMP, or enough to hand out flashes, or enough to grab the ion rifle.

Need I continue?

[Love-To-Hug]

6 hours ago, Shadeykins said:

Well this is silly. Last I checked the shadowling ice-vein ability actually applied a short-term stun to borgs.

If you have so many thralls as to warrant ten security borgs a romp through maintenance, you have enough thralls for one of them to grab the RD's ID and blow the borgs... Or enough to make an EMP, or enough to hand out flashes, or enough to grab the ion rifle.

Need I continue?

This doesn't address the main point of secborgs not being accounted for in the current meta of Security vs Antags. A 50% increase of the security force is immense.

HoPs being able to increase the slots does not take into account the additional equipment and coordination required to make that happen, not to mention it being considered a Faux pas to do so before necessary.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Love-To-Hug

[Doukan]

12 hours ago, shazbot194 said:

I bet if people asked robotics, depending who is manning the desk, they would be more then happy to give them out. Plus with shadowling, vamps, and cult, wouldn't it then be a point to thrall, convert, or control the robotisist or rd so they can mass produce them, or hell, just break in and make a couple. Meaning that strategy can win over raw power. And I totally agree they aren't really weapons anymore except mounted versions.

I ask fairly often with *nods politely towards you emotes and everything, 9/10 times I get told to fuck off. Then again I mostly play civilian.

[Shadeykins]

1 hour ago, Love-To-Hug said:

This doesn't address the main point of secborgs not being accounted for in the current meta of Security vs Antags. A 50% increase of the security force is immense.

HoPs being able to increase the slots does not take into account the additional equipment and coordination required to make that happen, not to mention it being considered a Faux pas to do so before necessary.

Completely irrelevant because borgs are terribly kneecapped and can't do even 50% of what a regular security officer can do. Here's some of the big ones for security in particular.

1) Borgs can't search people.

2) Borgs can't process people.

3) Borgs have no aux equipment to deal with large crowds (flashbangs, teargas, etc).

4) Borgs can't easily employ lethals from range.

[Love-To-Hug]

5 hours ago, Shadeykins said:

Completely irrelevant because borgs are terribly kneecapped and can't do even 50% of what a regular security officer can do. Here's some of the big ones for security in particular.

1) Borgs can't search people.

2) Borgs can't process people.

3) Borgs have no aux equipment to deal with large crowds (flashbangs, teargas, etc).

4) Borgs can't easily employ lethals from range.

uh... it's not irrelevant, and while they have weaknesses you are overlooking their strengths. they provide all access for themselves and any officers they are with. their flaws are hard to take advantage of in a big fight. They can spam the disabler. Generally the warden should be conducting searches and processing. And they can deal with a crowd just fine with their stunbaton energy tied to their batteries.

The only good point here is the lack of lethals from range, but given they can make it far easier for accompanying officers to use theirs and their durability in the face of other station threats, it's not really that big of a deal.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Love-To-Hug

[Sothangel]

All access and the ability to ignore SOP more than make up for not being able to search or deal with multiple people, imo.

[Landerlow]

I was a secborg again myself, yesterday during a round. I was easily disabled. Because I wasn't playing very well that round. It's also the competence of the person playing a character/borg that determines their strength.I'm against removing the secborg, perhaps impose a limit of 3-5 borgs indeed, but removing it would just be ... well, I just don't like removing it. 

[Love-To-Hug]

A 3-5 limit is exceedingly high. That's still a 50% increase to the force.

I'm of the opinion they should be removed entirely, but a lot of people like them for aesthetic reasons, such as my friend Travelling Merchant... and I can sympathize with this.

In my opinion, 2 on high peak and 1 every other time would be reasonable.

 

[Spacemanspark]

I see no reason to limit how many can exist, honestly.

I've seen people blow through borgs like play-doh before, it's really not hard to take them down.

And if they use an actual strategy to win? Good on the borgs. That doesn't make them "overpowered" by any means.

I wouldn't mind a cooldown thing on the borg disabler, though. If ten shots are fired in the span of thirty seconds or so, have it require a ten second cooldown before being able to fire again.

[Wheatley29]

On 4/9/2017 at 10:08 PM, Love-To-Hug said:

Just got out of a shadowling round where things were looking pretty tense at the outset. It was really looking like we, the crew, were going to lose. Bodies were pouring into medbay.

Then the secborgs formed a mob that went through maintenance. They were unstoppable. They stomped a mudhole into all the shadowlings.

When i mentioned this after the round, someone said they wanted secborgs to stay because 'it's the only way to deal with shadowlings really'... but that kind of proves just how overpowered they are?

Other stations have been getting rid of them and I'm really starting to see why. They're an enormous boon to Security in a way that makes the game much harder to balance, where the power difference between a Security team without secborgs and one with secborgs is rather enormous.

Can I point out that it was not a posse of secborgs that killed the majority of them, I killed two on my own.