Maybe it's time we think about removing secborgs

[Love-To-Hug]

8 minutes ago, Wheatley29 said:

Can I point out that it was not a posse of secborgs that killed the majority of them, I killed two on my own.

I addressed that later on. The shadowlings remarked after the round that while you did indeed make the kills, the secborgs were fanned out to such a degree they were being whittled down and unable to find thrall targets without a secborg being dangerously nearby.

[Wheatley29]

Just now, Love-To-Hug said:

I addressed that later on. The shadowlings remarked after the round that while you did indeed make the kills, the secborgs were fanned out to such a degree they were being whittled down and unable to find thrall targets without a secborg being dangerously nearby.

They allowed us to mass numbers, and one of these kills I literally just walked up to one of them they reacted to slow. We should not be hugboxing borgs because they destroy the unrobust. Infact, they even managed to grab the HoS which should prove that it's not as extreme as you are attempting to present it as. 

[Love-To-Hug]

Just now, Wheatley29 said:

They allowed us to mass numbers, and one of these kills I literally just walked up to one of them they reacted to slow. We should not be hugboxing borgs because they destroy the unrobust. Infact, they even managed to grab the HoS which should prove that it's not as extreme as you are attempting to present it as. 

I think the point is being missed to a great extent here.

There is a limit to the security force, and the amount of antagonists we have in a given round is meant to be tailored to that amount of Security*. It's part of the balance of the round.

The problem is borgs allow that limit to be surpassed to such a degree that, in that round for instance, there was essentially +50% more Security than there would normally be.

 

*(And, to reiterate, the HoP simply increasing the officer limit is not the same thing, as it requires additional equipment from cargo, an experienced HoP, coordination in command chat, and then waiting for players to take the slots and get up to speed. Whereas secborgs start with everything they need and have sometimes been lurking dchat so already have an idea of what's going on, and even if they try not to act on that info it's still a situation they are comfortable going into.)

[Wheatley29]

3 minutes ago, Love-To-Hug said:

I think the point is being missed to a great extent here.

There is a limit to the security force, and the amount of antagonists we have in a given round is meant to be tailored to that amount of Security*. It's part of the balance of the round.

The problem is borgs allow that limit to be surpassed to such a degree that, in that round for instance, there was essentially +50% more Security than there would normally be.

 

*(And, to reiterate, the HoP simply increasing the officer limit is not the same thing, as it requires additional equipment from cargo, an experienced HoP, coordination in command chat, and then waiting for players to take the slots and get up to speed. Whereas secborgs start with everything they need and have sometimes been lurking dchat so already have an idea of what's going on, and even if they try not to act on that info it's still a situation they are comfortable going into.)

Such a situation forces antags to learn how to go around something. If I have four security borgs against me, then I will not sit at maint doors hoping that a random greytider goes in, instead I will instruct my thralls to lure individuals DEEP into maintenance where it will take security longer to respond should I be discovered. The issue with antag players currently is that they do not plan ahead, if I'm going to storm the bridge I will emag my escape route doors and ensure that I have an escape to space with a hardsuit ready whereas most players will just dive the bridge and hope for the best. Prep work is key to becoming a good antag, it's not all how fast you can push over that seccie chasing you. Another big part of it is creativity, if you do something unexpected it's much harder for security to react properly. 

[Love-To-Hug]

Just now, Wheatley29 said:

Such a situation forces antags to learn how to go around something. If I have four security borgs against me, then I will not sit at maint doors hoping that a random greytider goes in, instead I will instruct my thralls to lure individuals DEEP into maintenance where it will take security longer to respond should I be discovered. The issue with antag players currently is that they do not plan ahead, if I'm going to storm the bridge I will emag my escape route doors and ensure that I have an escape to space with a hardsuit ready whereas most players will just dive the bridge and hope for the best. Prep work is key to becoming a good antag, it's not all how fast you can push over that seccie chasing you. Another big part of it is creativity, if you do something unexpected it's much harder for security to react properly. 

This doesn't address my argument at all.

[ZN23X]

*sigh*

[apneaman]

What about a cap on amount of sec borgs allowed in a round? Set it at 2

[ZomgPonies]

One possibility is to limit the amount of ACTIVE secborgs during a round. So if there's more than X, the option to choose that loadout doesn't appear to a new borg. If individual sec borgs are OP, then we need to concretely identify the ways they are, and find ways to adjust the power level of the specific module.

Removing them completely is throwing the baby out with the bathwater and a terrible knee-jerk reaction to a possibly legitimate concern.

[shazbot194]

Hello, this is my re-make of this post. I am still covering all my points and adding a couple in, but it should be a lot less long winded.

9 hours ago, Love-To-Hug said:

This doesn't address my argument at all.

 

We are. We are saying that rather then trying to nerf them, you should try and strategist better when fighting the borgs, there are Technics that work. 

I  also want to start off by saying that security borgs are still security members and should follow SoP to the fullest they can. If they break SoP in a way that is way un-needed and would net them a job ban as an officer, tell an admin.

Now, you say borgs are too powerful and are too hard to balance. I do think borgs are very powerful in direct combat, but lack the means of investigating and lethal combat, and when compared to other borgs, are less lethal then almost all of them. So I will list some advantages and disavatages and talk about them in the context of shadowlings.

Pros

• space proof
• Armored
• Can spam disablers
• immune to some stuns
• Add more players to security
• Can move through any unwelded doors

Cons

• can be stuned with flashes and emps
• cannot move over tables
• cannot unweld doors
• cannot instant stun over distance
• combat is very power costly
• cannot field lethal weapons without illegal upgrades
• cannot benefit from "meme" combos like x-ray vision and an x-ray gun
• can be locked down or blown from R&D console
• inherently trusts robotics
• cannot arm non-security members in crises
• cannot search people and has to bring them to an officer
• has to listen to ai no matter what

 

Yes, borgs are powerful, but are super limited. Some of their most powerful features like being able to go EVA asap is wasted on enemies that always stay in station and don't blow things up. As well, while they are armored, they need someone else to heal any damage done to them, even small amounts of damage can add up, not to mention if you do damage components, you effectively make the borg have to go to robotics for surgery. Disabler spam can be a problem and out of all of this, is most deserving of a nerf. Although, I personally don't think it needs to be nerfed, but that is just me. Their ability to go though any door is mimicked by officers who have the AI watching them. 

Counter to the believe that they are OP is the massive amounts of downsides I have listed. Yes, a lot of these may never come into a round, but the point is you have to make it, you can't just expect to not prepare and 1v1 a borg. Thralling science is clearly the best move to counter borgs as a shadowling. EMP shells might not be the most effective way to deal with borgs, but 3 shots hitting them from homemade shotguns will take a massive amount of energy from any borg, making them leave a fight early, not to mention if you thrall robotics, you can just have them de-brain the borgs and print out flashes to deal with any that they didn't get.  Add onto this tabling up maintenance could stop them in their tracks and force them to call someone else in order for them to pass, grouping targets together. This is added ontop of the fact they flat out suck in lethal compared to both other officers and other borgs. A medical borg with a normal battery installed can do so much more damage then a security borg could dream of with a bluespace cell. Only with a illegal module installed do they start to bring enough firepower to a lethal fight, but by then, normal officers can be equipped with way more powerful guns and enhancements like x-ray, anti-drop, and adrenaline with guns like tesla revolvers, x-ray guns, AEGs, or backpacks full of conventional laser guns. Borgs also have one unique weakness, they can be blown up or locked down if you manage to take down or thrall the RD, eliminating them from the round with a press of a button. They also lack the authority and means to arm people who are trusted with weapons, preventing major pushes from non-thralled people in additon to not being able to check people for illegal goods like weapons which pull other people like officers away from hunting down thralls. As well if the AI doesn't want to play ball with the HoS/captian or they have different priorities, they may be forced to do meaningless tasks.

If you are having problems with security borgs being powerful, be creative in dealing with them. While I know you were not in that round, nor was I, it sounded like they had the run of the station for a good while before the bots took it back. Why didn't anyone go to robotics and thrall one of them and tell them to just destroy the borgs when they come in or have them print out flashes. Why didn't they try tactics like putting tables in doorways to slow down or completely stop borgs, or when running from them weld the doors. Yes, 4 borgs can be a handful all at once, so why fight them all at once, why not find a choke point like a door or narrow hallway, they cannot move past each-other. It really feels like they lost not because of how powerful borgs are, but rather because of how weak their tactics were. 

You also bring up that they can increase the size of the security force by 50% with 4 borgs, and while that is true, the potential for shadowlings to increase in power is anywhere from 50-400% with the influx of people onto paradise. Where one group of shadowlings might have been able to get 10 people when there were 40 people in total on the server, they can get up words of 40 people thralled with 90+ crew members if they wanted to. This is only worsen by the increase in civilians leading to more people greytiding which takes up security personnel and leading to easy thralls. 

So in closing, I think that security borgs are more or less in a good spot, yes, they are powerful, in combat, they are a massive advantage even if they aren't super good at lethal damage, but this isn't meant to be a hug box (feels odd saying that) for antags to run circles around security but rather its meant to be a struggle where tactics win more then sheer brawn. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by shazbot194
added a couple thoughts and a closing statement

[apneaman]

2 hours ago, ZomgPonies said:

One possibility is to limit the amount of ACTIVE secborgs during a round. So if there's more than X, the option to choose that loadout doesn't appear to a new borg. If individual sec borgs are OP, then we need to concretely identify the ways they are, and find ways to adjust the power level of the specific module.

Removing them completely is throwing the baby out with the bathwater and a terrible knee-jerk reaction to a possibly legitimate concern.

Totally agree. Sec borgs are way too useful and incredibly helpful, especially in low pop or if you have to quickly chase a fugitive into space.but too many is a problem.

I think one thing that could Balance it out is adding a longer recharge to the disabler.

Edited April 12, 2017 by apneaman