Make certain syndie items more stealthy

[Doukan]

i eoc'd for millionth time this week for having syndie radio key on "random" search pls nerf

I'm talking about stuff like the no slip shoes and the agent ID, should need to have it scientifilyc analysed (ie: destructively) to actually tell a non-syndie what it is IMO. Really takes the piss that it's now common practise to search all those crevices since everyone powergames with the stealth items now, at least make it not so obvious that I'm carrying grade A contraband or something.

In a similar vein can we get emags disguised as ID cards? No point in trying to be stealthy at all when it takes all of one shift click to ID everything you've got.

[Love-To-Hug]

I don't think the emag is meant to be stealthy, unless you mean like an upgraded emag or something. I always interpreted it as a NT ID card that's been reverse engineered and has a bunch of components to it that don't even really fit in the card anymore.

But yes I agree with the overall sentiment.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Love-To-Hug

[Sothangel]

It isn't uncommon for some HOSes to order searches just in case people have storage implants, which I think epitomises the frustration here.

[ZN23X]

I can confirm I search all the crevices. Remove backpack, empty both pockets, check in any other containers in backpack, check PDA for both messages and uplink, examine ID, take off headset and test. I don't know how to check for a storage implant, but would if I did.

Sec shouldn't be randomly searching you (meaning searching you without you having committed a crime) unless it's code red and you are outside your department OR if there has been some sort of announcement that nobody is to be in maint and anyone found in maint will be searched (it's usually code red at this point anyways).

I can tell you that lots of the time sec searches people seemingly randomly it's because the AI caught you doing something sketchy and notified us.

Can't speak for all of sec but I'm also alot lighter on people who are pleasant and cooperative, I sometimes even forget to check all crevices then, but if you are being an ass and super upset you are being searched, I'll be sure to check everywhere because there is probably a reason you are so upset. If I stop you for a hallway search and you say "yea sure, go for it" I'll probably just check your bag and be on my way (note I will ALWAYS cuff you for a search because I've had too many ass bags agree to a search then stun me and either kill me or run as soon as they know I habe the UI in front of me removing their bag...speaking of powergamers :P). If you force me to chase you and tase you then spit fire at me, I'll drag you to processing and strip you.

Edited April 10, 2017 by ZN23X

[Doukan]

20 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

I can confirm I search all the crevices. Remove backpack, empty both pockets, check in any other containers in backpack, check PDA for both messages and uplink, examine ID, take off headset and test. I don't know how to check for a storage implant, but would if I did.

Yeah this is exactly what I'm talking about, sec always doing the full monty for everything.

That's player behaviour though and is only getting more common alongside other edge giving tactics like having the AI disable the airlock timing at roundstart because it makes it slightly more difficult for someone to break in. Kinda kills the fun IMO and needs coding around. Because lets face it if I've got something even slightly dodgy I'm always going to run because I know for a fact I won't get any slack when it comes to those cavity searches. I for one would do a lot more brig RP if it didn't mean always having my round ended.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Doukan

[ZN23X]

18 minutes ago, Doukan said:

Yeah this is exactly what I'm talking about, sec always doing the full monty for everything.

I did also say at the bottom of my post that I'll just do a backpack for hallway searches...and again I can't speak for all of sec but I don't "always" do "everything" I can, I was just explaining what I do when I do a full search. Using that as evidence that all of sec does this all the time is the equivalent of me saying all antags always powergame just because some do.

Powergaming begets powergaming. Sec will blame the antags, antags will blame sec.

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

I do wish it could be different because I think in a perfect world nobody would powergame and it would make the quality of play better for everyone, but you can't expect better behavior from one side without getting better behavior from the other side. And neither side is ever gonna give. Rule of online gaming. Someone will always find a way to push the mechanics of the game to the max and make it worse than it's capable of being.

One of the things I've learned playing sec alot is to cope with people doing asshole things that ruin the round for me. If I didn't want to deal with it I could opt to do something other than work sec. I'd advise the same for antags as they suffer the same problems from the opposite end.

Edited April 10, 2017 by ZN23X

[Doukan]

10 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

I did also say at the bottom of my post that I'll just do a backpack for hallway searches...and again I can't speak for all of sec but I don't "always" do "everything" I can, I was just explaining what I do when I do a full search. Using that as evidence that all of sec does this all the time is the equivalent of me saying all antags always powergame just because some do.

Powergaming begets powergaming. Sec will blame the antags, antags will blame sec.

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

I do wish it could be different because I think in a perfect world nobody would powergame and it would make the quality of play better for everyone, but you can't expect better behavior from one side without getting better behavior from the other side. And neither side is ever gonna give. Rule of online gaming. Someone will always find a way to push the mechanics of the game to the max and make it worse than it's capable of being.

One of the things I've learned playing sec alot is to cope with people doing asshole things that ruin the round for me. If I didn't want to deal with it I could opt to do something other than work sec. I'd advise the same for antags as they suffer the same problems from the opposite end.

Everybody knows dinosaurs came before chickens. And yeah mutualism is never gonna work in a online game because it's more of an arms race than a collaboration no mater how wonderful it might be so long as everone knows what an emag is and it's exact practical applications.

What you describe yourself as is most certainly not the norm from the point of view of a person who gets searched a lot and has tried all sorts of tricks, result is always the same unless blatant incompetence is involved.

[Doukan]

26 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

Double post welp

Edited April 10, 2017 by Doukan
double post welp

[ZN23X]

My best advise is do what I do. How can you beat the system? Obviously if you get caught with an emag you are screwed, and yes I know an emag makes life easy, but as you've pointed out can also make life hard. Just need to break into a certain area? If you get caught hacking a door with no contraband on you, you'll be brigged for B&E, maybe trespass. You'll still get a second chance. Do not carry items on you that can get you thrown in perma unless you are in the middle of committing an act that would get you in perma anyways. It's better to store the items in some secret location and possibly lose them then to get caught with them.

I guess I'm saying only use an emag in situations where you need the speed of an emag, like breaking into a highly restricted location, or busting in somewhere quickly to kill someone. Both would get you shoved on perma anyways. Part of the problem may be too many traitors just viewing an emag as "standard equipment" like it's something you always need to have.

Edited April 10, 2017 by ZN23X

[ZN23X]

20 minutes ago, Doukan said:

 

...and a double from me lmao

Edited April 10, 2017 by ZN23X

[shazbot194]

I think the solution to the problems of stealth items not being super stealthy isn't going to be one fix for all of them, but rather small fixes for each item. Syndi shoes and red soft suits are already in an ok spot as its normal to have those already. Other items like agent id need a fix from normal ids, namely that when you scan an id with it, if it was to produce a message, that you can do it with normal ids as well and get a similar message. Some items like the chameleon jumpsuit are already about as good as you can get because they are available on station normally even if no-one finds them. Just a whole bunch of small fixes as nothing big and sweeping will ever be able to make syndi items stealthier. 

1 hour ago, ZN23X said:

I can confirm I search all the crevices. Remove backpack, empty both pockets, check in any other containers in backpack, check PDA for both messages and uplink, examine ID, take off headset and test. I don't know how to check for a storage implant, but would if I did.

Sec shouldn't be randomly searching you (meaning searching you without you having committed a crime) unless it's code red and you are outside your department OR if there has been some sort of announcement that nobody is to be in maint and anyone found in maint will be searched (it's usually code red at this point anyways).

I can tell you that lots of the time sec searches people seemingly randomly it's because the AI caught you doing something sketchy and notified us.

Can't speak for all of sec but I'm also alot lighter on people who are pleasant and cooperative, I sometimes even forget to check all crevices then, but if you are being an ass and super upset you are being searched, I'll be sure to check everywhere because there is probably a reason you are so upset. If I stop you for a hallway search and you say "yea sure, go for it" I'll probably just check your bag and be on my way (note I will ALWAYS cuff you for a search because I've had too many ass bags agree to a search then stun me and either kill me or run as soon as they know I habe the UI in front of me removing their bag...speaking of powergamers :P). If you force me to chase you and tase you then spit fire at me, I'll drag you to processing and strip you.

I must be super lucky and convincing as I have been caught several time with EoC charges and I have yet to serve once for any of them, even when I hid contraband in plain sight. My favorite was when I hid the nuke in the turbine as an atmos tech and caused the station and CC to freak out. Even last night when I was search for being a suspected as cult member with a small group of people, I had a makeshift shotgun, a couple beanbag shells, and a saw in my backpack. The officers didn't mention anything. It was even labeled with my name.  

Edited April 10, 2017 by shazbot194
Added in the nuke part.

[Shadeykins]

Security does the full monty because if they don't, they get reamed out by everyone as being "shitcurity".

 

There is absolutely no incentive to cut antagonists slack, because genuinely everyone will hate you for it. So yes, this *is* a player behaviour issue, just not on the part of security.

[Jovaniph]

Maybe define the SoP search to only allow the search of Backpack, Pockets and Suit Storage only? That can expand of course. You can have it so other searches can be done if there is probably cause. etc etc.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Jovaniph

[Shadeykins]

1 hour ago, Jovaniph said:

Maybe define the SoP search to only allow the search of Backpack, Pockets and Suit Storage only? That can expand of course. You can have it so other searches can be done if there is probably cause. etc etc.

Seems like it would create more problems than it solve, considering breaching SoP as security can net you job bans.

[ZN23X]

6 hours ago, Jovaniph said:

Maybe define the SoP search to only allow the search of Backpack, Pockets and Suit Storage only? That can expand of course. You can have it so other searches can be done if there is probably cause. etc etc.

EDIT: I was originally against this but then re-read the second half. Add something to SOP regarding how much searching is allowed based on if it's code green, blue, or red. SOP is supposed to be enforced IC unless it's a horrendous breach of it...like if you are imprisoned for being searched improperly, you need to contact IAA.

I honestly think this is more a matter if play style. Lots of traitors get caught because they are using the high contraband items that at inexpensive. Stop relying on these items...or stop buying them at the start of a round and walking around with them for over an hour. You don't NEED to be tapped into all comms, or have an easy hack tool, or an agent ID on you for half or all of the round in order to succeed, and if you want to use these items, treat them as you would any other high level contraband...and be aware of and prepared for the consequences if you get caught with the items. Would you walk around for half the round with a syndicate bomb in your bag or would you summon it the moment you need it?

Edited April 11, 2017 by ZN23X

[Sothangel]

Even if some SOP were introduced in regards to searches... People won't care about SOP IC if breaching is produces results. This is something that happens quite often.

If, however, a clause was added to Space Law that said something along the lines of "Anyone searched or detained in a manner that is against SOP or Space Law may not be charged with any crime utilising evidence from said search/arrest, even EOC status." would be quite !!fun!!.

[Shadeykins]

1 hour ago, Sothangel said:

Even if some SOP were introduced in regards to searches... People won't care about SOP IC if breaching is produces results. This is something that happens quite often.

If, however, a clause was added to Space Law that said something along the lines of "Anyone searched or detained in a manner that is against SOP or Space Law may not be charged with any crime utilising evidence from said search/arrest, even EOC status." would be quite !!fun!!.

I understand where these laws are coming from (because they're an attempt to mirror real life ethics), but people need to realize these things aren't even upheld in real life. If police accidentally catch a guy with 20kg of cocaine and the search/seizure wasn't justified, he still goes to jail 100% of the time. Yes, you can look this up because this is exactly what happens - laws enacted to keep law enforcement from unreasonable search/seizure are trampled on all the time when they're impeding cases that obviously demand sentencing.

In short all this will do is create admin overhead over a non-issue.

Once again, it's in the rules that Security is beholden to their departmental SoP and breaching it can result in job bans. People do not need to be job banned over checking a headset that they can CLEARLY hear intercepting traffic or taking extra time when they've got an EoC.

No-slips aren't even briggable contraband for reference, so this thread is a bit fallacious to begin with.

[Rurik]

On 4/11/2017 at 8:49 AM, Shadeykins said:

Once again, it's in the rules that Security is beholden to their departmental SoP and breaching it can result in job bans. People do not need to be job banned over checking a headset that they can CLEARLY hear intercepting traffic or taking extra time when they've got an EoC.

They can only hear that if they are standing on the same tile as you, yeah?

[ZN23X]

On 4/11/2017 at 8:49 AM, Shadeykins said:

No-slips aren't even briggable contraband for reference, so this thread is a bit fallacious to begin with.

Not only not briggable but literally cannot even be confiscated because they are such low level contraband. (I don't even check for no slip shoes because of this)

As I've said in previous posts, it sounds like alot of the problem is traitors getting caught with the "standard equipment" that many traitors purchase due to lost cost and effectiveness. Radio chip, emag, agent ID. Easy come easy go. Be aware of the consequences or being caught with whatever contraband you are carrying and weigh the risk. This would make less people spend the entire match walking around with an emag in their inventory, unless they are equipped for a fight to the death when they are potentially caught.

Edited April 13, 2017 by ZN23X

[Shadeykins]

On 2017-04-13 at 6:03 AM, Rurik said:

They can only hear that if they are standing on the same tile as you, yeah?

Next to, IIRC.

The encryption keys are literally the worst.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Shadeykins

[Rurik]

Oh damn, good to know