Remove/modify paychecks for the 'assistant' job.

[Landerlow]

It makes no sense. While they could technically be an assistant for a department or something like that, all they do is bridge hobo or just enjoy themselves on the station in other areas, such as the bar. Which is fine, but why should they be paid by glorious Nanotrasen? 

If we stop handing out unemployment benefits giving them paychecks, they will be more motivated to actually work and contribute to the labour force. If they want a custom job for a gimmick, they could confer with the Head of Personnel to be put in a specific department that the role could perhaps belong in. If none such can be found, they could be just put into the 'service' department by default for custom jobs. This way, they will get paychecks. 

It would also open up a way for antag HOP's to sign assistants up into the service department in exchange for a cut of the money (give me x of your paycheck and I'll make sure you get free stonks). It could also give assistants more incentive to sell some of the stuff they may find on the station that others may find useful (I do this sometimes as janitor) to make money that way, since they don't get handouts anymore.

Finally it also makes sense (to me, at least) from a RP perspective.

 

Thoughts on this? Shoot :) 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Landerlow

[Generaldonothing]

this would just encourage people to join as a job and just ignore it for the paycheck

[henri215]

30 minutes ago, Generaldonothing said:

this would just encourage people to join as a job and just ignore it for the paycheck

People already join jobs for the benefits only and ignore their responsibilities, i dont think paycheck would encourage that much towards that, at least with the current economy.

 

I like assistants having a lower paycheck, more because of the RP aspect of it (certain jobs earning more than others) than a gameplay reason.

Edited September 19, 2023 by henri215

[Landerlow]

1 hour ago, Generaldonothing said:

this would just encourage people to join as a job and just ignore it for the paycheck

And if they did that, they could be fired to rectify it. As Henri also said:: People already do this and I too think that the change in paycheck wouldn't change this much more to be honest. From a gameplay reason, it won't make *that* much of a difference since the paycheck isn't that much but from a roleplay perspective it would make sense for assistants to get a lower/no paycheck. 

[Aligote]

I'm a little hesitant about this suggestion. Mainly because I think the reasons behind them are flawed. Instead of refuting why assistants aren't helpful to departments, the post just makes a blanket statement demeaning all assistants as bridge hobos, unemployed, and worthless. While the offer to the "issue" is mainly to just make people leave the profession.

I think assistants are working crewmembers and are useful as their name suggests. I also am hesitant that this change, mainly motivated by the perception of assistants as worthless, could affect roleplay in the future. I am concerned that this change would just enforce insulting assistants and demeaning those players overall. 

Also, this roleplay aspect already exists to some extent. Heads of staff have access to department accounts which they can pull credits out for additional revenue or whatnot. The assistants have their own "department" account which is significantly lower than the rest. Roleplay could center around that mechanic, which already financially cuts at assistants. 

I am not entirely against the idea of diversifying the paychecks. I personally like how everyone being paid 125 credits half an hour does seem like a dystopian aspect of the world, NT doesn't even bother because they're so powerful, but I am open to the change.  I just don't particularly like how this suggestion seems to wanna carry that change out.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Aligote

[Landerlow]

Personally I've found assistant weird as a title. Assistant to what, exactly? Assistants literally don't 'have' a job by default. I'm not saying they do not contribute to the round, not at all. All I mean is that they do not have a job in the workforce at roundstart. They can still contribute to the round. Not *every* assistant is a bridge hobo, and I understand that it might have come off as a generalization but I also pointed out that they do other things such as just enjoy their shift at the bar, go about their lives on the station and that's absolutely fine. Even people bridge-hobo'ing is fine (even thought I don't like it personally). I just don't think they should be paid to do it. 

If someone wants to join as assistant (IMHO 'civilian' would be a better general title) that's also fine. Just don't give them a paycheck. 
You could perhaps get some more alternative titles for the 'assistant' role, to create perhaps more roleplay, but that's perhaps something for a different time/thread. 

[Sadhorizon]

Does it make sense RP-wise? Maybe.

Personally, when I play assistant, I consider that a paid break from main jobs, not exactly being unemployed.

My Blueshield character for example. They do a LOT for NT, even besides being a bodyguard. They get rewarded with (sometimes) having a paid leave (counted in shifts).

That's how I explain a character suddenly going from being CMO, to a lowly assistant. They were not demoted, no. Just taking a paid break.

 

I'd be all for reduced paychecks tho. It would both fit to my headcanon, and make sense RP-wise - they SHOULD get paid less than an actual worker. Dunno, maybe like 60%, 40%, of original paycheck? That'd be 50/75 per 30 minutes. Unless you want to go on some mass buying spree, this doesn't feel like THAT much of an issue.

 

2 hours ago, Landerlow said:

all they do is bridge hobo

That is, by all means, a seperate issue. Bridge Hobos are basically AFK anyways, what do they need the money for? Let me tell you, you will NOT motivate them, ever.

[Landerlow]

I like the RP reason of 'taking a break from regular duties' when joining as an assistant. A reduction in pay would be fine with me, too. Perhaps somewhere to 30-50% of the normal salary payouts. 

[Kiro]

The paid shifts idea is something I've already as well been sticking to, given the minor persistence that has been around on paradise regarding character friendships and all. I've also noticed a large portion of the assistant population is either:
New players, who won't be motivated by money because they're in the job because they want to learn the absolute basics,
or:
The regional tider population, who usually have very high initiative to already set up shops or run their own gimmicks. 

This is really just looking to solve the issue of bridge hoboing, which this will do little to fix it feels, which is a cultural issue. 

[Aligote]

20 minutes ago, Landerlow said:

Personally I've found assistant weird as a title. Assistant to what, exactly?

I just thought they were meant to be assistants to the station overall. They get to choose what profession they will risk their lives to help in the forsaken space station. I thought the station provided Guest Pass Terminals for that very reason,  they have a place in the overall structure of the round. Their position in the workforce is one of learning and adaptability, at least that's how I perceived them. Paid break is a perspective though.

20 minutes ago, Landerlow said:

If someone wants to join as assistant (IMHO 'civilian' would be a better general title) that's also fine. Just don't give them a paycheck. 
You could perhaps get some more alternative titles for the 'assistant' role, to create perhaps more roleplay, but that's perhaps something for a different time/thread. 

Like, what others have said now. This just seems like a discussion over resolutions to an issue. If you do think this is a better solution, I don't think you need to hold on to it for another time. 

I'll be on the fence about the suggestion of reduced pay or a "paid break". Although it may be better than the original suggestion, I'm hesitant if such a headcanon should have that much sway over a mechanic.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Aligote

[Kiro]

Quote

I just thought they were meant to be assistants to the station overall. They get to choose what profession they will risk their lives to help in the forsaken space station. I thought the station provided Guest Pass Terminals for that very reason,  they have a place in the overall structure of the round. Their position in the workforce is one of learning and adaptability, at least that's how I perceived them. Paid break is a perspective though.

I've yet to once see an assistant "give assistance" in a round, even with the presence of the guest pass terminals, and the SS13 community as a whole seems to not view them that way. It's just a jobless role, that's what it's pretty much universally seen as.

[Aligote]

3 hours ago, Kiro said:

I've yet to once see an assistant "give assistance" in a round, even with the presence of the guest pass terminals, and the SS13 community as a whole seems to not view them that way. It's just a jobless role, that's what it's pretty much universally seen as.

I don't think that's the case at all. Even if it was, I think the better solution would be to use the mechanics already present to make assistants better contributors. Moreover, the perception of people who say it is a jobless role can only reinforce that statement. I'm sure if you give most assistant players the chance to contribute, without needing to give up their profession, they would. Hell, the headcanon that the assistant position is paid leave is because many assistants are experienced players who just want the freedom the role provides, and they do still contribute to the shift.

I also don't think assistants HAVE to constantly contribute in order to be considered a job. I think an assistant can enjoy things described like the bar, and still be considered the working crew. Assistants are what they are and there's no need to demean them as unemployed when they relax like any other job, in my opinion.

People's experiences are variable and I've seen assistants assisting many times along with their chilling. I don't think your claim to universality is valid.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Aligote

[Landerlow]

To avoid going in circles, let's keep it to the question/original suggestion. It had nothing to do with bridge hobo'ing specifically rather it was used as an example of what *some* assistants do. 

The question is:

Should we reduce the paychecks of civilians? If yes, how much?

I made a poll on the opening post now, so that it can be voted on to have a bit of a better perspective of where the general preference lies. 

[Aligote]

Just to clarify, everyone's paycheck is 125 credits half an hour. Heads of staff start with 600 credits and everyone else starts with 450 credits, but everyone gets the same paycheck.

[Aligote]

Well this is timing https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/22269, now the paycheck for everyone is 100 credits.

[Landerlow]

Amazing! :D

 

I have changed the poll to remove the reference to 'lowest' paycheck. The question still stands, as assistants get the same paycheck as crew who have an actual job. Also I must say that I'm happy about the mail system :)

Edited September 19, 2023 by Landerlow

[Aligote]

9 minutes ago, Landerlow said:

The question still stands, as assistants get the same paycheck as crew who have an actual job.

(ﾉ´д`)ﾉ

[Carthusia]

I feel like this kinda kills the idea that assistants also can get custom job titles an still perform jobs that are useful to the station, but under this kind of system they would also be getting no pay

[BottomQuark]

Originally I was for reducing it to 30% of the original pay

But some of you make fine points.

 

3 hours ago, Carthusia said:

I feel like this kinda kills the idea that assistants also can get custom job titles

^ this I feel is the most valid point for not reducing the pay. This doesn't happen often, but it happens. I had seen my share of assistants who get their job title renamed to "Bar designer" and they just redecorated the bar.

I still think assistants should get paid less. From the RP point of view, assistants take basically no risks in their job, but get paid as much as engineers that technically risk their life by playing with super matter.

 

From the gameplay perspective?
Maybe we should allow HoP to set the pay of crew so if the assistant change their job title and start working, HoP can rise their pay?
Then I would suggest reducing assistant pay by 50%.

 

This would fix the issue of hindering the creative people but also make it so assistants don't get the pay with minimal risk.

[Sadhorizon]

1 hour ago, BottomQuark said:

if the assistant change their job title and start working

Maybe create a new, non-standard job. "Miscellaneous Worker". Nobody can join it at roundstart, but HoP can transfer people there, for regular pay. Title can be, of course, changed.

This is, kind of, avoiding the main problem, but should still work.

[Endar]

Space hobos
Interns
Offduty personel
Tourists
Civilians
Diplomats
Assistant is my go to role if I want to RP and it usually ends up with a name change from the HoP if he is not being an ass

[Landerlow]

4 hours ago, Sadhorizon said:

Maybe create a new, non-standard job. "Miscellaneous Worker". Nobody can join it at roundstart, but HoP can transfer people there, for regular pay. Title can be, of course, changed.

This is, kind of, avoiding the main problem, but should still work.

As I said earlier: If assistants want a proper job with proper pay, they could go to the HOP and the HOP could put them in the department that fits the custom job the most, or put them into the service department by default, if that works correctly with paycheck allocation. Or indeed a 'miscellaneous' job, that would be put in the 'service' department by default, for example.

[Aligote]

Something else to consider is that the base pay is CREW_BASE_PAY_LOW. Another solution could be to raise other roles' wages to medium or high.

Also, there are still the department budgets which already vary depending on risks or whatnot. There could be some way to encourage heads of staff to start providing bonuses that differentiate the occupations. 

I'll be honest, the economy update is still relatively new, I think some command players still aren't aware that they can take credits from their department accounts. This could be a better course of action.

So instead of hindering assistants' abilities to buy items that could actually help them roleplay (instruments, clothing, Nano-Mob Hunder Go), perhaps actions could be taken to encourage the use of an unknown feature to distinguish occupations. Or diversify paychecks overall with varying amounts, although that may be more labor intensive.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Aligote